Thank you Walter. Your writings are truly inspiring. As a child I was raised as a catholic but at age 15 I decided that organized religion was completely corrupt and misguided. Today I practice in my grandmother’s indigenous beliefs and I believe that it has helped me to understand humanity and the natural world and its other human beings. We live in a world where life is short. Hatefulness and evil in our hearts robs us of the beauty that surrounds us.
Thank you so much! I just read that the Catholic church has over 73 billion dollars in assets. They could essentially eliminate world poverty on their own... but of course that would be in conflict with their doctrine. Imagine if all children were able to learn about indigenous beliefs? Why do we permit a society where those teachings are censored? Thanks for the comment!
Unfortunately, all human social institutions, including religious ones, can eventually become self serving entities more concerned with their own wealth and influence than their original purpose. As you say, Walter, the church is focused on expanding their influence rather than compassion at the risk of losing followers. Not what I would consider a proper use of their immense wealth.
I don't know if that's true of all human institutions. I don't know that we have to assume that. These things aren't predetermined inevitabilities, I think we have some determination over whether or not it happens. I don't think the church "succumbed to an inevitability," I think the corruption they show today is evidence of a flaw within the philosophy upon which the church is based. Thanks for the interesting thoughts, I'll have to contemplate this further!
I am not Catholic, but I live in a town that is more than 65% catholic. The church I was raised in accepts everyone at communion. Many Catholic churches do not. When I go to church, which is not often, I will not attend a church that does not offer communion to everyone.
Does your church allow women to be ordained? I think it's disgusting that churches are allowed to practice and promote the bigotry of denying women positions of leadership. It sounds like it's a good place though, thanks for the comment!
Thank you, Walter! You have the uncanny ability to say things that I have fumed about to myself all my female life. As a neglected child, I used churches as an escape, and every one of them turned out to be a complete bullshit patriarchal mindfuck. Catholics and Baptists were the most horrible. The Catholics humiliated me because I was too poor to tithe in Sunday School. The Catholics were also the sexual abusers of my beloved late brother, Howard. The white Anacostia Baptist preacher shrieked and wailed out his sermons, demanding tearfully that "not everyone's eyes were closed!!!". The only church that I ever enjoyed and felt ok in was the tiny Black church in a small shack-like home where the singing and physical movement presented a joy that seemed to exist despite the surreal racism and bigotry of the 60's. To this day, I love Black gospel music.
Keep up your incredible good work and observations, Walter, and protect your family from the Elmer Gantry's.
Thank you. I'm sorry to hear about the abuses you mentioned. It's so frustrating that such things are allowed to continue... but in a country where a rapist can run for president what can we expect? Thanks again.
My mother passed away in June in Germany. My parents were married at a time when Catholics and Protestants were not supposed to be married. Although my Mother remained Catholic all her life, she stopped attending Church in the late 60’s and no linger believed in God at the end of her life. As my father died earlier we have a plot in the Lutheran cemetery. We told the Funeral home that Mom was not religious, but the cemetery insisted we have a Service. We spoke to the Catholic Church and told them that we wanted something short and simple. Imagine my surprise when we had Female Priest who was absolutely fabulous and did exactly what we wanted! I had never heard of female priests here in the US!
I can't agree more and I must admit I never thought of that this way, thank you for that!
"This happens a lot with the idea of sin. I refuse to be labeled “a sinner.” I reply, “That’s your belief, and I’d kindly ask you not to impose your religious beliefs on me. If you want to label yourself as a sinner, I have no problem with that. Let’s hear it. Tell me about what you’re doing wrong and how you can do better. But labeling me as a sinner is an offensive intrusion upon my religious liberties. Don’t talk to me about the sacrifice you claim you or anyone else ever made on my behalf. I reject your basic premise. It’s disrespectful.”"
I don't know enough to compare, so I wonder if in other countries religion looms as large over public discourse and politics as it does in America. This immense intrusion of something as personal as religious convictions into our society causes many, many instances of manipulation and hypocrisy, as in the Pastor Gabe incident. And the conservatives have wielded Christianity as a political weapon extremely aggressively and effectively, to America's detriment.
I found the Christianity in Peru was a lot healthier than the US version, but it still has its problems. White supremacy and American White Christianity go hand in hand, unfortunately.
I live in Canada and while I personally know people for whom religion plays an important part in their life, I have never been pressured in any way to involve myself. In fact, people are of the mind that one's religious beliefs and practices are personal matters, and it is unseemly or even rude to push those matters on others. Of course there are people here who feel differently, but they tend to be akin to the evangelical sects in the US. I don't know the last time that I heard someone label something as a sin - at least in Canada (the last time I was in the US - pre-Trump's ride down the escalator - I did, but that is another story). This is not because of the people I am involved with - I have been a college teacher, worked with people with disabilities and facilitated their involvement in the community-at-large, worked in restaurants, lived in a huge city and in a small city, and traveled in Canada from the ultra-east point of Newfoundland to the uber-west point of Vancouver Island. People just don't usually think it is appropriate to accost you with their religious beliefs.
This was never more exemplified than when our dog was enrolled in training in a local pet store. Beginning with puppy classes through all the levels offered (and advanced classes particular to that store), she and I joined and remained involved in a group for about 5 years. We were with a core group of people and their dogs for all that time and became quite good friends both in and out of dog training classes. It was not until about 4 years had passed before I discovered that one of the people involved with our group was a minister in a local church. We were told this only when a situation came up and we wanted to send her a group card and asked our trainer what her address was so we could mail it. He finally told us after hemming and hawing a bit that she was a minister but didn't want to make that public because she never wanted anyone to feel like they had to change their behaviour because there was a minister present. We teased her after learning that, saying that we were all trying to remember if we had ever been caught swearing when our pup misbehaved and nothing we did worked to bring them back to being any better or if we had muttered one of those expletives like, OMG or such. She just said that she knew what kind of people we were, and we knew her the same way, and nothing was different because of her job.
Later, when my mother-in-law expressed an interest in spiritual guidance and involvement, we knew exactly who to reach out to - our friend. She comes to visit on a regular basis in my 101-year-old mother-in-law's home and will be there for her when the time comes for a final service. I am very strongly not a believer in any religion and no one in my in-law's family nor in my group of friends has ever tried to make me feel differently about that. I wish I could say the same for my own family, but that, too, is another story.
I think there's something about the American philosophy that has truly corrupted Christianity. There are people here who get in your face, and they also steal from public education. It's really a deplorable situation.
I feel like you hit a vein, Walter. My church set the board of Christian education a task to find a new curriculum. I did research came up with some options and spent a lot of time on this only to find out at the last minute that some guy had already picked the new curriculum. I just wanted the board to rubberstamp it. I resigned the next day.
Well put... To your point, I do not see 'spirituality' and 'belief systems' as coefficients. While it is possible for them to be synchronous, human spirits in my experience are distinct from beliefs. The spirit exists whether we correctly regard its existence or not. As in, the truth is not dependent upon our belief in it. Truth exists regardless of our acceptance, understanding, or even awareness of it.
We live just a few miles south of Winder. We’re still flabbergasted over a father who thought an automatic weapon was a good gift for a 14-year old. My young nephews learned to shoot firearms early—to hunt. My brother knew what he was doing. This guy? What was he thinking?
Agreed. It is well past time for a woman to lead us. Too many of us have been told, "Be quiet. Be a good girl." And we were. That didn't mean we didn't have thoughts of our own. I'm sorry that all you hear is the shouting sounds of men spewing their hateful versions of "faith." It's well past time they shut up and listened to what the women have to say ... what we've been thinking for decades. But there also has to be genuine listening. Trying to shout over the roar is unproductive.
I should have said this first, but got caught up reading all the comments about this article.
Walter, this is one of the best titles for an article I have seen. All by itself, it is a lesson about how to write a title that is exciting without being "clickbait." In my mind, it is not only visual, but almost like a little video. I absolutely love it!
"...labeling me as a sinner is an offensive intrusion upon my religious liberties...." So I guess you would find the old jazz tune "Sing, You Sinners" offensive, then.
Thank you Walter. Your writings are truly inspiring. As a child I was raised as a catholic but at age 15 I decided that organized religion was completely corrupt and misguided. Today I practice in my grandmother’s indigenous beliefs and I believe that it has helped me to understand humanity and the natural world and its other human beings. We live in a world where life is short. Hatefulness and evil in our hearts robs us of the beauty that surrounds us.
Thank you so much! I just read that the Catholic church has over 73 billion dollars in assets. They could essentially eliminate world poverty on their own... but of course that would be in conflict with their doctrine. Imagine if all children were able to learn about indigenous beliefs? Why do we permit a society where those teachings are censored? Thanks for the comment!
Unfortunately, all human social institutions, including religious ones, can eventually become self serving entities more concerned with their own wealth and influence than their original purpose. As you say, Walter, the church is focused on expanding their influence rather than compassion at the risk of losing followers. Not what I would consider a proper use of their immense wealth.
I don't know if that's true of all human institutions. I don't know that we have to assume that. These things aren't predetermined inevitabilities, I think we have some determination over whether or not it happens. I don't think the church "succumbed to an inevitability," I think the corruption they show today is evidence of a flaw within the philosophy upon which the church is based. Thanks for the interesting thoughts, I'll have to contemplate this further!
Although I did qualify it with “can become”
I should have said “many”
I am not Catholic, but I live in a town that is more than 65% catholic. The church I was raised in accepts everyone at communion. Many Catholic churches do not. When I go to church, which is not often, I will not attend a church that does not offer communion to everyone.
Does your church allow women to be ordained? I think it's disgusting that churches are allowed to practice and promote the bigotry of denying women positions of leadership. It sounds like it's a good place though, thanks for the comment!
yes, we do ordain women. It’s one of those churches that is losing Membership not one of those cool new fire and brimstone, evangelical churches.
That's awesome, I'm very glad to hear they ordain women!
It's amazing how once women start getting ordained, all the scandals start going away.
Thank you, Walter! You have the uncanny ability to say things that I have fumed about to myself all my female life. As a neglected child, I used churches as an escape, and every one of them turned out to be a complete bullshit patriarchal mindfuck. Catholics and Baptists were the most horrible. The Catholics humiliated me because I was too poor to tithe in Sunday School. The Catholics were also the sexual abusers of my beloved late brother, Howard. The white Anacostia Baptist preacher shrieked and wailed out his sermons, demanding tearfully that "not everyone's eyes were closed!!!". The only church that I ever enjoyed and felt ok in was the tiny Black church in a small shack-like home where the singing and physical movement presented a joy that seemed to exist despite the surreal racism and bigotry of the 60's. To this day, I love Black gospel music.
Keep up your incredible good work and observations, Walter, and protect your family from the Elmer Gantry's.
Thank you. I'm sorry to hear about the abuses you mentioned. It's so frustrating that such things are allowed to continue... but in a country where a rapist can run for president what can we expect? Thanks again.
My mother passed away in June in Germany. My parents were married at a time when Catholics and Protestants were not supposed to be married. Although my Mother remained Catholic all her life, she stopped attending Church in the late 60’s and no linger believed in God at the end of her life. As my father died earlier we have a plot in the Lutheran cemetery. We told the Funeral home that Mom was not religious, but the cemetery insisted we have a Service. We spoke to the Catholic Church and told them that we wanted something short and simple. Imagine my surprise when we had Female Priest who was absolutely fabulous and did exactly what we wanted! I had never heard of female priests here in the US!
Very good. I personally don't trusts priests that are white or male.
I am with you on that one. Based on your post one could infer that lawyers and preachers are of the same ilk when it comes to misfortune.
I can't agree more and I must admit I never thought of that this way, thank you for that!
"This happens a lot with the idea of sin. I refuse to be labeled “a sinner.” I reply, “That’s your belief, and I’d kindly ask you not to impose your religious beliefs on me. If you want to label yourself as a sinner, I have no problem with that. Let’s hear it. Tell me about what you’re doing wrong and how you can do better. But labeling me as a sinner is an offensive intrusion upon my religious liberties. Don’t talk to me about the sacrifice you claim you or anyone else ever made on my behalf. I reject your basic premise. It’s disrespectful.”"
The language of sin is designed to control people. It's an awful concept, and it's actually the root of white supremacy.
Now you're talking a language that I understand. I just never thought about the "offensive intrusion upon my religious liberties" part.
I don't know enough to compare, so I wonder if in other countries religion looms as large over public discourse and politics as it does in America. This immense intrusion of something as personal as religious convictions into our society causes many, many instances of manipulation and hypocrisy, as in the Pastor Gabe incident. And the conservatives have wielded Christianity as a political weapon extremely aggressively and effectively, to America's detriment.
I found the Christianity in Peru was a lot healthier than the US version, but it still has its problems. White supremacy and American White Christianity go hand in hand, unfortunately.
I live in Canada and while I personally know people for whom religion plays an important part in their life, I have never been pressured in any way to involve myself. In fact, people are of the mind that one's religious beliefs and practices are personal matters, and it is unseemly or even rude to push those matters on others. Of course there are people here who feel differently, but they tend to be akin to the evangelical sects in the US. I don't know the last time that I heard someone label something as a sin - at least in Canada (the last time I was in the US - pre-Trump's ride down the escalator - I did, but that is another story). This is not because of the people I am involved with - I have been a college teacher, worked with people with disabilities and facilitated their involvement in the community-at-large, worked in restaurants, lived in a huge city and in a small city, and traveled in Canada from the ultra-east point of Newfoundland to the uber-west point of Vancouver Island. People just don't usually think it is appropriate to accost you with their religious beliefs.
This was never more exemplified than when our dog was enrolled in training in a local pet store. Beginning with puppy classes through all the levels offered (and advanced classes particular to that store), she and I joined and remained involved in a group for about 5 years. We were with a core group of people and their dogs for all that time and became quite good friends both in and out of dog training classes. It was not until about 4 years had passed before I discovered that one of the people involved with our group was a minister in a local church. We were told this only when a situation came up and we wanted to send her a group card and asked our trainer what her address was so we could mail it. He finally told us after hemming and hawing a bit that she was a minister but didn't want to make that public because she never wanted anyone to feel like they had to change their behaviour because there was a minister present. We teased her after learning that, saying that we were all trying to remember if we had ever been caught swearing when our pup misbehaved and nothing we did worked to bring them back to being any better or if we had muttered one of those expletives like, OMG or such. She just said that she knew what kind of people we were, and we knew her the same way, and nothing was different because of her job.
Later, when my mother-in-law expressed an interest in spiritual guidance and involvement, we knew exactly who to reach out to - our friend. She comes to visit on a regular basis in my 101-year-old mother-in-law's home and will be there for her when the time comes for a final service. I am very strongly not a believer in any religion and no one in my in-law's family nor in my group of friends has ever tried to make me feel differently about that. I wish I could say the same for my own family, but that, too, is another story.
I think there's something about the American philosophy that has truly corrupted Christianity. There are people here who get in your face, and they also steal from public education. It's really a deplorable situation.
Indeed. It sort of makes the Crusades as bit more understandable.
I feel like you hit a vein, Walter. My church set the board of Christian education a task to find a new curriculum. I did research came up with some options and spent a lot of time on this only to find out at the last minute that some guy had already picked the new curriculum. I just wanted the board to rubberstamp it. I resigned the next day.
Good for you!
https://substack.com/@msswayzejr/note/c-129060777?r=46nrpc&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Well put... To your point, I do not see 'spirituality' and 'belief systems' as coefficients. While it is possible for them to be synchronous, human spirits in my experience are distinct from beliefs. The spirit exists whether we correctly regard its existence or not. As in, the truth is not dependent upon our belief in it. Truth exists regardless of our acceptance, understanding, or even awareness of it.
We live just a few miles south of Winder. We’re still flabbergasted over a father who thought an automatic weapon was a good gift for a 14-year old. My young nephews learned to shoot firearms early—to hunt. My brother knew what he was doing. This guy? What was he thinking?
Agreed. It is well past time for a woman to lead us. Too many of us have been told, "Be quiet. Be a good girl." And we were. That didn't mean we didn't have thoughts of our own. I'm sorry that all you hear is the shouting sounds of men spewing their hateful versions of "faith." It's well past time they shut up and listened to what the women have to say ... what we've been thinking for decades. But there also has to be genuine listening. Trying to shout over the roar is unproductive.
Your posts give us something important to think about, Walter. Thank you. Several weeks ago, I published an essay on my views regarding religion. Here’s the link: https://open.substack.com/pub/thestormbynorm/p/religion-and-me?r=1qaj9v&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=true
I read your article, Norm - loved it and commented.
Harris will be president for all of us, even the human rats.
She is a rat. Look up Judge Joe Brown. She is on the diddy list.
I should have said this first, but got caught up reading all the comments about this article.
Walter, this is one of the best titles for an article I have seen. All by itself, it is a lesson about how to write a title that is exciting without being "clickbait." In my mind, it is not only visual, but almost like a little video. I absolutely love it!
"...labeling me as a sinner is an offensive intrusion upon my religious liberties...." So I guess you would find the old jazz tune "Sing, You Sinners" offensive, then.
Only if they direct that command at me. I wouldn't sing.