Whether they are aware of it, or not, EVERY woman indoctrinated in the current Christian movement is an abuse victim. The idea that women should be subservient to men is pervasive. EVERY woman should question this.
This is an excellent comment and it's something our society needs to discuss with greater frequency. We should teach that women have rights in public schools. What a concept that would be right? Thank you.
"One of the main issues with any religious discussion is the assumption that religious groups have the right to judge you, but you never have the right or authority to question them. This leaves you at an immediate power disadvantage before the discussion even begins."
This is particularly the case when it comes to parochial or faith-based teaching. The various residential schools which operated in Canada and the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries were predicated on the idea of the teachers and staff speaking with the "voice of God" and the Indigenous students having no social support or legal recourse. As a result, those running the schools could justify any form of the many types of punishment involved, up to and including acts of depravity, as being part of 'God's plan".
It is far more this version of Christian power, as opposed to the far more merciful one of Jesus, which many modern Christians who seek power and influence wish to emulate.
Yet many of us outside Christian circles understand that there are negative consequences to these beliefs, and hope for punishment for those who perpetrated these acts. We also hope for the gradual break-up of relations between Christianity and right-wing politics as an outgrowth of this punishment, for this has allowed Christian influence to continue to exist when it should not.
I believe that Christianity created right-wing politics. They're never going to be separated. Cruelty is the point, and it's disgusting. Thanks for your thoughtful words David.
One of your best articles. I could not agree more. I have been pushing back on religious abuse since 1976. As a counselor I found it to be at the root if all trauma. Thank you for speaking out.
Thank you Diane. Once we find the language to talk about it, we make significant progress. But the authoritarians have managed to freeze us out. We can't allow that to continue.
Unfortunately, much of the better quarter (not better half) of American Christianity fights these battles merely on the level of ideology and theology. Yes, sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty and do some street fighting. There is only limited usefulness (though there is some) by creating labels like “Christian nationalism” as opposed to “black liberation theology”. This can carry some weight, but is it enough?
Within the Catholic church the child abuse scandal has been discussed widely by SOME, though OTHER Catholics wish they would shut up. The most visible outfit is SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). But a lot of people want to ignore SNAP and wish they would go away. The Vatican may be doing better than some conservative Catholic groups in the USA. The Vatican itself highly recommended the movie “Spotlight”- about the Boston newspapers uncovering the clergy sex abuse scandal- but it was denounced by some conservative Catholic groups in the United States (predictably the zero-credibility Catholic League).
I think churches should just ditch and discard the doctrine known in theology as “original sin”. In its most draconian form, it teaches that everyone is born bad, and is essentially “damned by default” due to descent from Adam and Eve. Let’s just scrap this one(!!), and argue NOT ONLY on the level of theology and language, but ALSO talk about the severe damage this does. It rationalizes a great deal of authoritarian abuse and cruelty. (But I repeat I don’t at all think Jesus had this in mind in John 8.)
I have previously posted on another of your posts, that religious charities have less transparency and accountability than others, so this creates a problem for the “not government’s job to do charity” argument.
When we start talking about "dropping" parts of the Bible, I think that's a good start. We need to drop it all. The most important part to drop is the idea of the manifestation of the divine in human form. The crimes of Christianity prove that has never been the case.
I think I can phrase my thoughts much better than I did priorities.
I will use distinctions drawn from both Jungian psychology and the pagan author Starhawk.
I’ll start with Starhawk.
She distinguishes three kinds of power, power-over, power-from-within, and power-with. Power over is based on domination and control over others. "Power within" is a personal power taken from one's own sense of self, spiritual strength, and inner integrity. In connecting with others, one connects with the deeper inner self with the other. “Power-with,” relates to social power or influence between equals.
Carl Jung distinguishes between the Self which is holistic and includes both the conscious and unconscious. Much more limited is the ego, which is limited to our surface self-awareness. Jungians say it is important to have self-respect and self-love in the whole self, not merely in the ego. The latter option leads to vanity, a desire to dominate. The former leads to the cultivation of deep empathy.
IMO, any meaningful talks of people/anyone as manifestations of divinity, must be talk that allows them to manifest what Starhawk calls power-within and power-with, and leads to an energization of what Jung calls the whole Self not merely the ego.
In this sense, it is OK to talk of people (Jesus and others) as manifestations of divinity.
Well,I guess our priorities are a bit different. I think churches need to drop original sin (took hold in 5th century AD in the West but not the East), Jesus' death understood as a substitutionary punishment (took hold in the 11th century in the West but not the East), drop all-male leadership (took hold way early), Also restore some of the interesting non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas (not in the official New Testament)
The idea of the divine in human form has more than one possible valence. In the Eastern churches, we are ALL to be made Divine. A popular saying is God became man in order that man might become God. Does the incoming of the divine END with Jesus or does it spread out to all humanity?? The Eastern Orthodox churches entirely reject the Western concept of "salvation" altogether.
Some people think that Angelina Jolie is the divine in human form.
Generalizations are NOT unfair. When I read Robert P Jones from PRRI, I can see there is plenty of actual evidence (beyond my own lived experience) that shows being a white Christian greatly increases the chance that one is a Trump voter and other evidence of cruelty and false groupthink and the avoidance of reality-based world views! GAH.
Accounts of contemporary religious abuse would make for a great book? I like the term Christian abuse. I have no patience with mind control religion and sheeple. Survivor here as well. Religion primes you for gaslighting. If you are female it is likely you have experienced religious oppression in some form. You need not look far to see the damage. I am remembering a trip to Salem, Massachusetts and the memorials to murders done there in the thrall of religious hate mania and greed. Then there are the churches organized to take 10% to all of your money. I have beloved people who are in an actual cults now, to my frustration.
I see certain progressive churches as having limited social value as a kind of inexpensive available meeting place to affect positive change. I am thinking of progressive socially aware Black Churches and activist congregations like Quakers and Unitarian Universalists.
We have to at least make sure the general public is aware of the concept of Christian abuse. That's the scratch on the armor we need to let the rust in.
I have no patience with religion and sheeple. Survivor here as well. If you are female it is likely you have experienced religious oppression in some form. You need not look far to see the damage. I am remembering a trip to Salem, Massachusetts and the memorials to murders done there in the thrall of religious hate mania and greed. Then there are the churches organized to take 10% to all of your money.
I see certain churches as having limited social value as a kind of inexpensive available meeting place to affect positive change. I am thinking of certain socially aware Black Churches and activist congregations like Quakers and Unitarian Universalists?
If there are good ones, they need to join us in denouncing the bad ones. They should never seek credit for being good, only work for the betterment of all.
Thank you for making the effort to revisit your trauma and share your thoughts. So many people in my life have experienced Christian abuse. I count myself lucky that I escaped it. I hope the term Christian abuse becomes more broadly used. As a society we need the tools to confront religious organizations that harbor predators. Phrases like Christian abuse are key to unlocking this discussion.
I think it’s dangerous not to question your faith. Where are the boundaries there? I think nefarious people blur them and substitute themselves as representatives of unquestionable authority. They do this to abuse you. Be careful out there. I know that’s what they did to me.
Whether they are aware of it, or not, EVERY woman indoctrinated in the current Christian movement is an abuse victim. The idea that women should be subservient to men is pervasive. EVERY woman should question this.
This is an excellent comment and it's something our society needs to discuss with greater frequency. We should teach that women have rights in public schools. What a concept that would be right? Thank you.
"One of the main issues with any religious discussion is the assumption that religious groups have the right to judge you, but you never have the right or authority to question them. This leaves you at an immediate power disadvantage before the discussion even begins."
This is particularly the case when it comes to parochial or faith-based teaching. The various residential schools which operated in Canada and the U.S. in the 19th and 20th centuries were predicated on the idea of the teachers and staff speaking with the "voice of God" and the Indigenous students having no social support or legal recourse. As a result, those running the schools could justify any form of the many types of punishment involved, up to and including acts of depravity, as being part of 'God's plan".
It is far more this version of Christian power, as opposed to the far more merciful one of Jesus, which many modern Christians who seek power and influence wish to emulate.
Yet many of us outside Christian circles understand that there are negative consequences to these beliefs, and hope for punishment for those who perpetrated these acts. We also hope for the gradual break-up of relations between Christianity and right-wing politics as an outgrowth of this punishment, for this has allowed Christian influence to continue to exist when it should not.
I believe that Christianity created right-wing politics. They're never going to be separated. Cruelty is the point, and it's disgusting. Thanks for your thoughtful words David.
As a survivor, I 100% agree.
Strength to you my fellow survivor.
And too you. I'm finally gettting some help. Therapy works.
One of your best articles. I could not agree more. I have been pushing back on religious abuse since 1976. As a counselor I found it to be at the root if all trauma. Thank you for speaking out.
Thank you Diane. Once we find the language to talk about it, we make significant progress. But the authoritarians have managed to freeze us out. We can't allow that to continue.
Unfortunately, much of the better quarter (not better half) of American Christianity fights these battles merely on the level of ideology and theology. Yes, sometimes the pen is mightier than the sword, but sometimes you just have to get your hands dirty and do some street fighting. There is only limited usefulness (though there is some) by creating labels like “Christian nationalism” as opposed to “black liberation theology”. This can carry some weight, but is it enough?
Within the Catholic church the child abuse scandal has been discussed widely by SOME, though OTHER Catholics wish they would shut up. The most visible outfit is SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests). But a lot of people want to ignore SNAP and wish they would go away. The Vatican may be doing better than some conservative Catholic groups in the USA. The Vatican itself highly recommended the movie “Spotlight”- about the Boston newspapers uncovering the clergy sex abuse scandal- but it was denounced by some conservative Catholic groups in the United States (predictably the zero-credibility Catholic League).
I think churches should just ditch and discard the doctrine known in theology as “original sin”. In its most draconian form, it teaches that everyone is born bad, and is essentially “damned by default” due to descent from Adam and Eve. Let’s just scrap this one(!!), and argue NOT ONLY on the level of theology and language, but ALSO talk about the severe damage this does. It rationalizes a great deal of authoritarian abuse and cruelty. (But I repeat I don’t at all think Jesus had this in mind in John 8.)
I have previously posted on another of your posts, that religious charities have less transparency and accountability than others, so this creates a problem for the “not government’s job to do charity” argument.
When we start talking about "dropping" parts of the Bible, I think that's a good start. We need to drop it all. The most important part to drop is the idea of the manifestation of the divine in human form. The crimes of Christianity prove that has never been the case.
I think I can phrase my thoughts much better than I did priorities.
I will use distinctions drawn from both Jungian psychology and the pagan author Starhawk.
I’ll start with Starhawk.
She distinguishes three kinds of power, power-over, power-from-within, and power-with. Power over is based on domination and control over others. "Power within" is a personal power taken from one's own sense of self, spiritual strength, and inner integrity. In connecting with others, one connects with the deeper inner self with the other. “Power-with,” relates to social power or influence between equals.
Carl Jung distinguishes between the Self which is holistic and includes both the conscious and unconscious. Much more limited is the ego, which is limited to our surface self-awareness. Jungians say it is important to have self-respect and self-love in the whole self, not merely in the ego. The latter option leads to vanity, a desire to dominate. The former leads to the cultivation of deep empathy.
IMO, any meaningful talks of people/anyone as manifestations of divinity, must be talk that allows them to manifest what Starhawk calls power-within and power-with, and leads to an energization of what Jung calls the whole Self not merely the ego.
In this sense, it is OK to talk of people (Jesus and others) as manifestations of divinity.
I disagree. Talking about manifestations of divinity in human form always leads to corruption in my oponion.
Well,I guess our priorities are a bit different. I think churches need to drop original sin (took hold in 5th century AD in the West but not the East), Jesus' death understood as a substitutionary punishment (took hold in the 11th century in the West but not the East), drop all-male leadership (took hold way early), Also restore some of the interesting non-canonical books like the Gospel of Thomas (not in the official New Testament)
The idea of the divine in human form has more than one possible valence. In the Eastern churches, we are ALL to be made Divine. A popular saying is God became man in order that man might become God. Does the incoming of the divine END with Jesus or does it spread out to all humanity?? The Eastern Orthodox churches entirely reject the Western concept of "salvation" altogether.
Some people think that Angelina Jolie is the divine in human form.
Generalizations are NOT unfair. When I read Robert P Jones from PRRI, I can see there is plenty of actual evidence (beyond my own lived experience) that shows being a white Christian greatly increases the chance that one is a Trump voter and other evidence of cruelty and false groupthink and the avoidance of reality-based world views! GAH.
Yes, I often tell people that saying "generalizations are untrue" is ITSELF a generalization. They usually don't know how to respond.
lol, that’s a good point!
Accounts of contemporary religious abuse would make for a great book? I like the term Christian abuse. I have no patience with mind control religion and sheeple. Survivor here as well. Religion primes you for gaslighting. If you are female it is likely you have experienced religious oppression in some form. You need not look far to see the damage. I am remembering a trip to Salem, Massachusetts and the memorials to murders done there in the thrall of religious hate mania and greed. Then there are the churches organized to take 10% to all of your money. I have beloved people who are in an actual cults now, to my frustration.
I see certain progressive churches as having limited social value as a kind of inexpensive available meeting place to affect positive change. I am thinking of progressive socially aware Black Churches and activist congregations like Quakers and Unitarian Universalists.
We have to at least make sure the general public is aware of the concept of Christian abuse. That's the scratch on the armor we need to let the rust in.
I have no patience with religion and sheeple. Survivor here as well. If you are female it is likely you have experienced religious oppression in some form. You need not look far to see the damage. I am remembering a trip to Salem, Massachusetts and the memorials to murders done there in the thrall of religious hate mania and greed. Then there are the churches organized to take 10% to all of your money.
I see certain churches as having limited social value as a kind of inexpensive available meeting place to affect positive change. I am thinking of certain socially aware Black Churches and activist congregations like Quakers and Unitarian Universalists?
If there are good ones, they need to join us in denouncing the bad ones. They should never seek credit for being good, only work for the betterment of all.
Thank you for making the effort to revisit your trauma and share your thoughts. So many people in my life have experienced Christian abuse. I count myself lucky that I escaped it. I hope the term Christian abuse becomes more broadly used. As a society we need the tools to confront religious organizations that harbor predators. Phrases like Christian abuse are key to unlocking this discussion.
Thank you!
Well said Walter. I agree with you all the way.
Thanks William!
I don’t question my faith, I do question the fact that people use Christianity as an excuse to do stupid shit
I think it’s dangerous not to question your faith. Where are the boundaries there? I think nefarious people blur them and substitute themselves as representatives of unquestionable authority. They do this to abuse you. Be careful out there. I know that’s what they did to me.